Preserving Q&A

Melissa Norris: Hey pioneers. Welcome to episode number 371. Today's episode we are going to be talking about sourdough and canning as well as preserving meat. This is our third episode of the Q&A and today we're going to be hitting things in the kitchen. I hope that you've enjoyed this series.

I've actually had a lot of fun answering your guys' questions and this is part three. We've done part one and a part two, so we'll definitely link those in the show notes and blog posts that accompanies today's episode so that you can go and check them out if you haven't listened already.

Now I don't know about you guys, but for me, I tend to do a lot more baking, obviously the month of December. I'm sure that's pretty true for most of us as we move into the holidays. But really January, throughout all of winter, I do a lot more cooking and baking in the kitchen than I do the other times of the year.

And I am just getting ready to pull my sourdough starter out of hibernation. Normally I've pulled it out of hibernation honestly before this time of year. I'm recording this really close to release time, actually the week of, so this is the December 12th is actually when I'm recording this and it will release for you this Friday.

Normally I've pulled my sourdough starter out of hibernation usually October, sometimes November, but usually around October. This year though, we were really hot all the way through October, like no rain, and we had 80°F days in October here, which is basically unheard of.

But without having air conditioning, it still felt very much like summer. We even still had smoke from different wildfires in the air and I just couldn't bring myself to turn the oven on and really get into baking with it still being conditioned like summer.

And then obviously November came next and we have been super busy with the farmstead. So the farms stay, I'm super excited and I will do an episode on it. This was not intended to be part of this episode, but here we are. It is ready and we are actually booking our guests.

So you can go to norrisfarmstead.com if you want to see all the after and check out booking a estate with us and seeing just everything that the farm has become. I'm so excited, but it is definitely taken up way more of my time, honestly, when we bought the place in June.

And we'll link back to that episode that tells a little bit more of that story and how things have progressed for those of you who are like, "I don't have any idea what you're talking about, Melissa," but we bought the place June 9th is when we closed and I naively thought that we would be done and ready to accept guests.

And the whole project wrapped up at least that first phase of the farm stay house by really October 1st is kind of what I was thinking. Well, here we are two months later and we're still wrapping up the final things. Our first guests are coming December 30th.

So there's just a few little touches and different things that we are wrapping up to get it already, and I'm really excited about that. But it has taken a lot of my, I don't want to say extra time because I don't feel like any of us really have extra time, but I've not been able to do some of the things that I normally do or I just haven't chosen to make it a priority if I'm being honest.

And sourdough has been one of those, but I am pulling my sourdough starter out of hibernation, getting it all back up, ready to go to bake bread because I really miss it. In fact, my husband even said, he is like, "Could you start making sourdough bread again?" Which I have to tell you is music to my ears.

I know most of you when you make food from scratch for your family, especially sourdough because that's not as easy as just opening a packet of yeast and baking bread. Sourdough takes a lot more commitment and different timeframes.

And so when they actually ask for something like they miss it that you've been doing that does require a labor of love in order to produce it, it kind of just makes you feel good all over it. I'm like, "Yes, yes, I can pull that back out and start making sourdough bread again." So anyways, I'm excited to do that.

And that brings us to the first question, which is by Laura Lee. And Laura Lee says, "How do I know if my starter has gone bad?" Oh friend, you will know if it has went bad. Now sourdough starter is often going to smell sour, but I know that sounds silly to say, but when people first get going with sourdough starter, we've been so conditioned to sent on foods like, oh, if it smells bad, throw it out.

`And in a lot of cases that's true, but because a lot of folks aren't used to fermented foods. So the difference between smelling what is a good ferment, which can have a sour smell, but doesn't mean that it's bad, oftentimes people are a little more with a ferment opt to tass it not realizing it's not actually bad, it's just a strong ferment smell.

And there's a difference between strong fermenting smell and actually bad. So that being said, with sourdough starter, you will know if it is went bad if it is a putrid smell. So I don't mean a strong smell like a vinegar smell. Sometimes even people will say that a sourdough starter can almost smell like nail polish remover.

And that has to do with as it goes through its different phases of lactic acid and converting things. Sometimes you can get that smell, and one, it is not obviously from you nail polished remover, but it can have a scent like that. And that doesn't mean it's wet bad at all.

It can have obviously a very sour smell to it. Vinegar smallish, maybe slightly alcohol-ish smell. Those are all really normal with sourdough starter, it doesn't mean it's gone bad. And it can develop a really dark black... It can turn black liquid on top that's called hooch.

It's die off and it basically means that you have not fed that sourdough starter enough and it really needs to be fed, but it doesn't mean that it's bad. I know you're hearing the words black liquid and you're like, "Well, in my book, that means it's bad." Not with sourdough starter.

When that happens, and even the top layer of a sourdough starter can get, it's kind of looks gray, like beneath that hooch liquid, pour off the hooch, especially when it's that darkened color, pour that off, scrape off at least the top couple of inches.

And then what's underneath should look like normal colored sourdough starter, which is kind of a light tan depending on what type of flour you're using. It's kind of like a light tan color if you're using fresh ground flour, or white if you're using store bought all purpose.

And then you feed it and you'll start to see that it'll start to come back little bubbles at a time and you just kind of go through like you were building it up again from brand new. Now this is when a starter has been neglected, it's not been fed for a really long period of time.

The signs that it's truly went bad is if it smells petrified, ranted like I think I may throw up, it smells bad. Those are signs that affirm it and that is the case when it smells like that, you definitely want to toss it out, don't mess with it. The other is pink mold.

So on a sourdough starter, if you ever see pink mold developing on top, you definitely want to throw it out. Pink mold is one of those we don't want to mess with. So you're going to definitely toss it out in that instant. I have not, okay, take that back. No, I'm trying to think.

I have had pink mold develop on a different ferment. It was a vegetable firm at one time. I've never had pink mold develop on my sourdough starter. I have had the black hooch and the really gray, nasty looking sludge on top and I'm like, "Okay, I want to scrape all this off and then I'm going to try the center of it that still looks okay. And we're going to see what happens."

And it did come back, took it a week or two, but that was a sourdough starter that I had shoved in the back of the fridge and honest to goodness, it had been at least nine months since I had fed it. It had just been sitting in the fridge for nine months.

And even when you're storing the other fridge, you should feed it more often than that, but they're pretty resilient. So really it's the pink mold factor or even yellow mold. For me, any really colors of mold, I am going to start over with something new. That's just me personally, but definitely the pink or putrid.

Okay. Next question is from Sandy Joe and Sandy Joe asks, "Is it possible to preserve meat as jerky, dried fruit, et cetera without a dehydrate and does it taste as good?" So Sandy Joe, you can definitely dehydrate fruit without an actual dehydrate and things like herbs.

Possibly some vegetables, it's depend on where you live, how hot you are in your humidity levels. And the reason I say that is because I live pretty far north and so it's harder for me to use the sun outdoors to dehydrate things without, like I can dehydrate in my sun oven, but that's basically a dehydrate.

Or I'm using the sun oven as a dehydrate, which is a solar cooking unit that's actually really cool. Some people will use their cars and some people if you get warm enough, will actually be able to put vegetables, fruit, et cetera on screens and put them outdoors.

And then they'll usually cover them. Different methods. Sometimes they'll cover them with glass from old windows or at least with something to keep the flies off of it. We have livestock so we've got a lot of flies, even more so than just what you would normally have with the absence of livestock.

So you have to have something like a sheet or a couple layers of cheesecloth, that type of a thing that will allow them to still dehydrate, the sun, but will keep the bugs and the pests and that type of thing off of them. And a lot of times when people are using that method, they'll bring the screens in overnight because we get usually quite a bit of dew here.

And so you don't want to reintroduce that moisture or the cool temps of the night because it's just going to really prolong. And the longer you prolong dehydrating something when it's not fully dehydrated, the higher chance of it developing mold. So I say that because yes it is possible, but it's definitely going to be harder to do in some climates than others.

Now of course you can use your oven and if your oven will go down to 170°F and you can then crack open the door so that you can have airflow and that will usually keep it a little bit cooler as well. So it's not technically quite at 170°F. A lot of people will use that as kind of a makeshift dehydrator.

So for your fruit, your vegetables, definitely herbs. Herbs you can just normally air dry just fine. You definitely can dehydrate them without a dehydrate. Does it taste as good? Yeah. I mean, once something is dehydrated, I don't think it really matters if it was in a dehydrate or by some other means, you've removed the moisture content to a point where it's shelf stable.

So I don't really think that the flavor is affected much versus using an actual dehydrate, the sun or air, et cetera. It's long as you can get it to that dehydrated point.

Now when it comes to preserving meats though as jerky, I personally would want something that I can control the temperature because you want to make sure that you're getting the moisture removed from it as quickly as possible because meat is going to grow bacteria a lot faster potentially, for contamination there, than a fruit and vegetable would.

So for me in my climate I wouldn't try to dehydrate meat without a dehydrate. Now like I said, sun oven acts as a dehydrator.

So I would feel fine using that or my oven is a dehydrator or the actual dehydrator, but I would want it to be with something where I could control the temperature to ensure that it was getting done fast enough and being held at a temperature where I felt confident that there wouldn't be any bacteria growth in the meat for us to consume.

So meat is kind of questionable. Now I know of course there's lots of different indigenous people throughout the whole world who have done jerky and meat and stuff, obviously without an electric dehydrator, but again that's going to be climate and they were very skilled in it.

So for me personally, that's not one that I would try to do without a dehydrator myself. Now speaking of dehydrated foods, today's podcast episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Azure Standard.

And Azure Standard has a plethora of different dehydrated foods so that you can try a food in a dehydrated form to see if it's something that you actually like and enjoy before going through all of the work of dehydrating it yourself.

So there's some things I have decided, or I should say determined. I don't actually really enjoy it in its dehydrated form. I don't end up using it. I don't end up cooking it. It's not something that we end up eating very often.

And so oftentimes I will try something dehydrated first, see how I like it, cooking with it, does the consistency come back to something that my family actually enjoys or not? So Azure Standard is one of my favorite companies, if you've not heard of them before, they have all kinds of different food items from dehydrated to fresh, including flowers and most of it you can buy in bulk. They have different sizes.

So you can try it out in a small kind of more of a sample size. And then if it's something that you know and love, you can buy it in bulk, which of course allows you to build up your food storage and saves you money because anytime we're buying something in bulk, we're actually paying less per pound in most instances for said item.

I know that the items that they carry are raised either by the Azure farm itself, it has very high standards, organic standards for raising their food or they're partnering with other small farms and companies that have those same standards.

And the great news is Azure Standard is offering to anyone who is a new customer that places a minimum $50 order by February 28th, 2023, a coupon code for 10% off. That coupon code is pioneering 10. And one of my favorite things to get from them is their dehydrated organic onion powder, especially this year because my onion crop was quite dismal for a variety of reasons.

And so all of the onions that we do have, I am using in our regular cooking obviously just as an onion and I don't have enough access to make my own onion powder. So I am relying on Azure Standard for their organic onion powder. All right, we've got some canning questions coming this way.

And first one is from Me Delicious Farm and ask, "Do you use steam canner? And if so, do you can meat with it?" So yes, I do use a steam canner. No, you cannot can meat with it. So a steam canner is approved, has been approved for a number of years now to use with any acidic recipe that you could water bath can.

So any water bath canning recipe you can safely use a steam canner in order to process it. And I've got a number of different tutorials, et cetera, with videos on melissaknorris.com that will walk you through using a steam can. There's just a little bit at the end process that you do just slightly different than a water bath can that you need to be aware of.

However, it is not a pressure canner and it cannot be used to can anything except water bath recipes, and meat is definitely not something that is safe to process via water bath. This next one is from May Mia and says, "When you pressure can with a double rack, do you still only use a couple inches of water?" This is the great question.

So she's referencing a pressure canner and some pressure canners are large enough that you can double stack jars and side of them. So for example, my All-American is a 21 and a half quart size and I can double stack pints in there and can, depending on if they're wide mouth or regular mouth, about 19 pint jars at one time.

You do use the same amount of water. You're not including any more water just because you've got the double stack in there. However, the only time that you would add a couple more inches of water, and this is not because of the double rack and double stacking is on really long processing items, specifically when you are pressure canning smoked fish.

When you're canning smoked fish because the processing time is quite long, it's almost two hours actually, then you need to have extra water in there or you could run the risk of it actually basically would be boiling dry, all of the liquid inside would've been used for the steam and it would become dry, which would one damage the unit but also you wouldn't be able to keep pressure up and so that batch would be lost.

But just general double stacking with your vegetables and regular meat, et cetera, no, you don't increase the water level because you have stacked. And then I have a question from Repairs. I had shared, when I originally shared on Instagram where I asked you guys for your questions for the podcast, which was really fun.

I shared a photo of, we had just gotten done canning smoked salmon. And so Repairs asked, "Is that fish in the jars?" Yes, it was salmon, and said, "Did you raw pack or hot?" And when you are canning smoked salmon, you don't smoke it like you normally would if you were just going to consume and eating it because you don't smoke it until it's actually at the finished part.

It's kind of half smoked. So it's not completely raw, but it's not what you would consider a hot pack either because it's still pretty cool to the touch. It's not like you've cooked it in the oven or pan-seared it or something like that. So very specific when you are canning smoked fish as to what point you get it done versus the other.

And this next question is from Lori, Kate, Ken, "Do I pressure can? And if so, my favorite make and model." Well, yes I definitely pressure can and I have to say my favorite make and model is definitely the All American. I have had a mural which is very similar to the Presto model.

I've used a Presto pressure canner, but the All American truly is my favorite and one, because of the size I like having my big one that I can double stack in. But two, I feel like the All American is just better higher quality construction from the way that the lid goes on the machine, the way it fastens down with the wing nuts.

And I feel like once it's at pressure, even on an electric stove, because I canned uncooked on an electric stove for years. We just got a propane gas stove installed this summer and oh my gosh, I don't know that I would ever go back. I'm like, "Okay, I see why people love their gas stoves."

But I canned very successfully for a number of years on an electric stove and all American, I feel like once you get it to pressure was easier to stabilize that pressure than the other models. I didn't have to fiddle as much with the temperature to keep it where it should be at the appropriate pounds of pressure.

Which actually really leads into the next question and this is from Jessica Meatweed and says, "Should my pressure canner be constantly adjusted while canning? It moves so much." It shouldn't have to be constantly adjusted. So some that may mean that you are heating it too fast, Jessica, if you're having to constantly adjust it, maybe try getting it a little bit slower up to temp and seeing if that helps.

That being said, there are some stove tops and some burners especially that are just kind of finicky, they tend to swing, they get real hot. While we were waiting for a propane stove, we bought purposely, because our stove totally broke. It wasn't usable anymore.

And I knew that I wanted to get a propane stove, but the one that I wanted, it took like, oh, good night, I think I ordered it in February and it didn't come in until July. So I knew that I had to have something obviously to cook and bacon a range. And so we just went and bought a used electric stove range so that we had something to cook on and bake on while we were waiting.

And that stove was something special. The oven worked fine, but the burner, there was one particular burner and that thing you would have it at a two, which is pretty low and all of a sudden it would turn red hot. I mean, the coils would be red hot like you had it as high as it could go.

So we just learned that you never ever used that burner. Unfortunately, it was one of the large burners. Anyways, the stove was something special and I didn't feel like getting it fixed. It was already a used stove. I knew I had a new one coming. I'm just like, nobody used this burner.

But the reason I share that is you could possibly have a burner if it's in electric stove and especially it's the coil burners and maybe something's kind of going on with that burner and it's fluctuating a lot.

That being said, when you are adjusting your temperature when you're pressure canning, because it can get too hot or too low, you got to keep an eye on it and make sure that it's staying where it should be as far as pounds of pressure. You always want to make sure that you are adjusting it in small increments.

So if it's hot and then you're bringing it down really too cold and then you're like, "Oh man, now I'm starting to drop pressure too much," and then you're swinging it back up hot. That might be part of it. It's a little bit hard to know without actually having exacts from you.

But those would be the few things is small increment adjustments and then making sure that in the beginning you don't have it too high when you're trying to get it up to pressure because then that really makes it hard to adjust it and keep it where it should be throughout the rest of the processing time.

And then this is our next question from A Wilderness Experience that says, "Can you steam can in a pressure canner as you would for water bath canning?" This is a great question and the answer is, yes, but it's not really what I would call steam canning.

So I have seen where some people will take a pressure canner, they'll put the lid on, but they don't ever put the weight on. And they put the water in there and they bring it up. And so the steam is just escaping through the vent pipe, which you would do when you were exhausting it before you would actually put your weight on for pressure canning.

And then they start their processing time when that steam is exhausting through the vent pipe. However, I personally have never seen from a tested source where there was documentation that said, yes, it's the exact same temperature and you can do this for a water bath canning substitute.

I haven't personally seen that. So what I do instead is I take my pressure and mine is deep. Before I got the steam canner, I should say, this is how I would water bath can my quart jars and I share this in my full course, the Home Canning with Confidence Course.

If you have that, there's an entire lesson that you see this in action on, but I fill it with water just like you would a water bath canner. So one to two inches above the top of your jars. And then I just use a cookie sheet as a lid, because you do need to use a lid when you're water bath canning.

It's not just the boiling water, it's boiling water with the lid on for your processing time. And so I'll use that and that has worked great. And so I will use my pressure canner as a water bath canner, just not with a pressure canner lid.

Just something that's like a cookie sheet or if you have a pot lid that would fit it except that you could put on there, that's large enough. My pressure canner is so large, I don't have another pot lid that would fit it. So a large cookie sheet though does because it's just a flat surface that I can put on there as a lid.

Now if you want to learn more about preserving food beyond canning, though definitely canning in depth, make sure that you check out my brand new book, Everything Worth Preserving. It's a Hard Back and it is shipping now. If you ordered it through the publisher from melissakmorris.com, you actually check out on the publisher's site, those are being shipped.

A lot of people are getting them at so fun seeing everybody unpacking it and getting excited to preserve their food, but it covers all the different nine ways that you can safely preserve food at home. And it's been so fun to actually have it in hand and get to go through it. It was like, I feel like my Christmas present came early.

I just got my author copies this week as well. Now on to our verse of the week, and we are in Proverbs 1, and actually verse two and three. This is the Amplified translation, "That people may know skillful and godly wisdom and instruction, discern and comprehend the words of understanding and insight, receive instruction in wise dealing and the discipline of wise, thoughtfulness, righteousness, justice and integrity."

"That prudence may be given to the simple and knowledge, discretion and discernment to the youth." And I actually included verse four there, and I especially liked this passage because both skillful and godly wisdom and instruction.

For those who know the Bible and are Christians, it's really obvious that godly wisdom and instruction, especially in this day and age, it's not not necessarily what the world would say. And so making sure that we are using godly wisdom and instructions as we go forth and we make our decisions is extremely important.

And I also thought it was interesting on receiving instruction in wise dealing and the discipline of wise, thoughtfulness, righteousness, justice and integrity. Because it's that discipline part that. Means it's not just something that always comes super easy or something is just always going to happen.

I mean, discipline means that you are thoughtful about it, that you are making it something that you practice all the time, but it's intentional and it's something that we have to be focused on. And I have to say, there's oftentimes when I wish like, man, I wish this didn't come so hard, or I wish that I want to do this, but then this is what I tend to do.

And it takes that discipline to do the things that don't necessarily come naturally to us. And I think that's why I really appreciate it and want to talk about this first is because it's something that we do have to be intentional about and discipline ourselves to use godly wisdom and instruction throughout all the areas of our life.

I want to thank you so much for joining me for this episode and I will be back here with you next week for our last installment of our Q&A series. Blessings and mason jars for now, my friends.