Troubleshooting Chicken Health & Best Herbs for Chickens

Melissa: Hey, pioneers. Welcome to episode number 378. Today's episode, we are going to be talking about troubleshooting your chickens' health. So what to do if chickens, certain chickens in the flock, are getting pecked on. What are some of the signs that they're being picked or bullied on, as well as some of the best herbs to use for your chicken's health, including growing those herbs in your yard and or garden. We're also going to be talking about adequate spacing within your chickens, and what to do or options if you have chickens in an area that is not necessarily zoned for chickens, or are having some problems with that. So this of course, is for more of our listeners who maybe wanting to get chickens, but you are not in a rural situation, you're in more of a suburban or urban area that maybe has some rules that aren't quite as friendly to chicken owners.

So this is going to be a really fun episode. This is one of our live coaching calls that features one of our Pioneering Today Academy members, Joan. So we go over a lot of things regarding chickens, but especially when we get towards the part where we're talking about, what if you live in an area and there's certain zoning rules or regulations that are prohibiting you from doing some of the things that you want to do, what some of your options are. So I think that, in particular, is going to be a great area of interest, and if you're listening to this and you have got experience in those types of situations, we would love to have your feedback on that, so that we can help more people be able to have freedom of choice when it comes to raising their own food.

One of the things that has been on the chatter, I should say, with a lot of chicken owners is finding a good source of chicken feed. And today's sponsor of the podcast is Azure Standard. And Azure Standard is my go-to source for a lot of our livestock feed, including our chicken feed. They actually carry two different brands, and I use both of them. They are both an organic source that have soy and corn free options. So I know a lot of you, one, organic is important to you, so that we are feeding our animals feed that is minus at least synthetic pesticides and, or what most of us would consider the really harmful chemicals. And being soy free and corn free is very important to a lot of people, because they tend to have food sensitivities or allergies to those, and that can be passed through the feed that the animal eats, into their eggs or the meat. So I know that's really important for a lot of folks, and we try to avoid soy as much as possible, so it's really important to me.

And both of the brands, one is Modesto and the other one is Scratch and Peck. Both of them have organic chicken feed and they've got both the starter. So when you've got those baby chicks, they need to have slightly different formulation for that growth that they're putting on in the beginning, usually about the first, oh 18 weeks or so of the chick's life. And then, they have your maintenance or your laying hen and or ducks, that they need their specific formulations of protein and different macro, micronutrients to best serve them. So we use both of those. For the ducks, they really like the Scratch and Peck, so I tend to get the Scratch and Peck for the ducks, and then I'll mix that in with some of the Modesto. They're more the pellets, and so that we are feeding to our young flock of chickens right now.

But they are both really excellent sources and of course, you can get them in bulk. And the great news is with Azure Standard, if you are a brand new customer, if you've never used Azure before, they're offering a 10% discount for first time customers on orders of $50 or more. Use coupon code Pioneering 10. Coupon code Pioneering 10 at checkout on your first order of $50 or more, and definitely check out their livestock, and including, chicken feed options. Now, on to our episode and interview of our live coaching call with Joan.

Well, Joan, welcome to the Pioneering Today Podcast.

Joan: Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Melissa: Yeah. And for everybody who is listening in, I know one of the things on your list today that we're going to be talking about a lot is your chickens. So, share with us how many chickens you've got, and how long you've had them.

Joan: We have 12 chickens. We have six Rhode Island Reds and six Australorps. And they all have their own personalities, but we've had them since the middle of April of 2022, so not even a year yet.

Melissa: Okay, so pretty young flock then?

Joan: Yes. They're not a year old yet.

Melissa: Okay. And are they all hens or do you have any roosters?

Joan: Oh no, they're all hens.

Melissa: They're all hens. Okay, great.

Joan: Yes.

Melissa: Okay. And you are in New York, correct?

Joan: I am in New York.

Melissa: All righty. So when I asked what your biggest struggle with your home setting journey was, you said your chickens. So can you tell me a little bit more detail? What's happening with the chickens? What has you concerned or what's your struggle point in regards to them?

Joan: Well, I guess just the beginning, just the whole fact that I didn't grow up with anything like this. I mean, the most outrageous pet I had was a chipmunk, lived under our piano for about a month, but mostly cats and dogs. And so, just the idea of having 12 additional living, breathing entities that need my help. And I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to kill them by accident, to be perfectly honest.

And now, a lot of it has to do with obviously, still their wellbeing and making sure they're getting fed all the proper things, so that they grow strong and healthy and happy. But unfortunately, I think we not only have one, but two bullies, and we have tried separating them. I don't believe we did it for long enough, but it's more that trying to figure out how to deal with the bullies, so that ultimately no one gets injured. Because, I've read a lot and basically if you don't, at least from what I understand, if you don't get it under control, they could eventually kill each other. And obviously, I don't want that to happen. So I think that's my biggest issue. But then just making sure that I feed them all the right things and give them enough attention, and things like that.

Melissa: Yeah. Well let me preface it with saying that chickens are actually really mean to one another. I love my chickens and we've had them for, oh goodness, over a decade. We've had laying hens and different flocks, and yet chickens are just, they can be brutal to one another. Of all of the different livestock that we've had, from cattle to ducks, to chickens to pigs, I have to say, the chickens are the meanest to one another. And actually, so it is part of their natural inclination and we can only fight nature so much. So one, sometimes you will deal with issues and we'll talk about that, but to let you know that you're not doing anything wrong necessarily, because they will naturally have this hierarchy and they can be really mean. Especially, if they determine that there's a weak chicken in the bunch. They can be brutal to the point of death, which of course, we want to do everything in our power to not allow that to happen. But also to know that that is just part of the nature of chickens.

And I don't think it's something that we really talk about a ton, because well one, on social media and whatnot, the cute eggs and the cute pictures of chickens is a much more fun thing to share. But there is that other side, so to speak, of animal husbandry and home setting. But we're definitely going to dive into ways that you can do your best to not have that happen, or if you see signs happening, like steps and stuff you can take. So with that being said, so you've got your 12 girls, and what is your coop setup? Is it chicken tractors, stationary coop? Do they have a run? Do they free-range at all? How is their housing?

Joan: Right. Well, it's a stationary coop because we actually built it in, the coop itself sits in the back part of our garage. So it's a coop within a building, and then they can go out into an exterior run that's stationary. We don't have enough property to have a chicken tractor or anything like that, because we live on less than a quarter acre of property. And so we did just recently get some electric fencing, the movable electric fencing. And so we're trying to figure out an area that obviously they haven't been in, that we can put it up and let them go in there and get a little bit of interest going, give them something different to do for a day, or something like that. But, other than that, it's all stationary.

Melissa: Okay. And do you know the guesstimate of the square footage of the coop?

Joan: I believe the coop is about 140 to 150 square feet. It's also very tall.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: It's about eight feet tall.

Melissa: Okay. And they've got different roosting bars or areas that they can go up and get up?

Joan: Yeah.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: They have four separate roosting bars, all kind of ...

Melissa: Staggered?

Joan: Up, staggered, yes. Going up. And they do tend to sleep on the top two, all of them bunched together. Even during the summer, they would still all bunch together. And then they've got their nesting boxes, and then a couple other little things to give them, inside the coop itself, to give them a little bit of height difference from just being on the floor.

Melissa: Okay. And you said that you've got two of those chickens that tend to be, they're more bullying. So what are the signs of bullying that you're seeing right now, and is it still happening pretty prevalently?

Joan: Well, it's mostly that almost all of the chickens are missing a number of tail feathers. There's obviously been a lot of pecking. I've even seen one of the Australorps in particular, go around, follow one of the other chickens and just pecking her constantly. Some are worse than others. Ironically, the Australorp I saw following one of the Reds, she's missing a fair amount of feathers, but it's almost like now she's decided to be a bully as a way of fighting that. And she is one of the bigger ones. I mean, two of our Australorps are, gosh, easily the size of a basketball.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: Easily. And then obviously, everything goes down in size from there. But even, I think she's the one who was originally the runt, actually.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. And that is definitely signs of bullying, if you're seeing missing tail feathers, especially that you don't have a rooster. Because if you had a rooster, sometimes he is just a little too amorous for his ladies and will end up, you'll have lots of tail feathers because he's a little more active than they probably would like him to be. But you don't have a rooster. So that is not the case here. And you've actually seen her going and yanking out the tail feathers, and that's definitely a sign of bullying. But it doesn't sound like you've got any open wounds. We're not having any blood.

Joan: No. Not that I can see now. We have in the past. And when I saw one like that, I immediately took her out, the one that had the open wound. And it actually turned out, we realized about 24 hours later that it wasn't so much she had an open wound, as one of the feathers had been broken off instead of completely pulled out. And so the blood was actually coming out of that little, I guess, for lack of a better word, the little stem left from the feather.

Melissa: The quill, yeah.

Joan: The quill. Yes. And other than that, she was fine, but we still kept her out long enough to make sure that it didn't get infected or anything like that. So other than that, I haven't seen any what looks like open wounds, or any blood or anything like that.

Melissa: Okay, good. And the reason I ask is because once you do see signs of blood, usually then I do have to pull that chicken out because once they see blood they are, it's just sharks in the water. Then they tend to really just keep pecking and pecking, and going at that chicken, and can get to the point where they kill it or really severe, they just made the wound so large. So I just wanted to make sure we weren't at that point. So that's good. So it definitely sounds like though, that if all of the chickens almost have loss of tail feathers, that they are having a lot of bullying.

Now, I'm curious, did it pick up more once you had hit the winter and there was shorter daylight hours, and they were outside perhaps less? Or had it been pretty much just since they kind of reached maturity in size?

Joan: I hadn't thought about that, but I think you're right. I think as the days got shorter, it started to pick up more.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: You might be right about that.

Melissa: So it sounds like that they're a little bit bored. And I've noticed this with my own chickens when I am not allowing them out of the chicken tractor at all, which would be essentially being stuck in the coop. Even though we move the coop so that they get to be on fresh ground every few days, they still can't just go where they want to at will. They're still in this specific size. And I've noticed, especially more so when there's the longer night hours and there's less daylight hours, and I'm not sure if there could be, I don't really think that there's a nutritional tie because I don't change the way that we, I mean they're still getting all of the correct feed ratios and all of that. So I think it's almost like a boredom factor.

I mean, I'm sure somebody will get a kick out of this, but I'm like, does this SAD affect them? Seasonal Affective Disorder? I don't know. But I do notice that I tend to get more picking on in my own flocks, more so in the wintertime, especially if there's a lot of snow on the ground and they have even less areas that they can go to. Because they don't like to be, when it's deep snow, they're fine if it's a few inches. But more than that. So I think that there is something to the winter and being in, and also the amount of chickens in this space. Because I've also been where I have divided the flock into one of our other tractors, and that has definitely helped. Even though in the summer months, they seem to be fine in that same space.

So it could be, and though according to the stats of how many square feet is recommended per chicken, the 12, if you've got them in 140 to 150 square feet, I mean that is ample. But sometimes and personality of chickens, et cetera, that's not always ... You'll deal with what you're dealing with it. So that's very normal. So if you guys have got the electric poultry netting so that they've got a larger area that they can go during the day, I think that will definitely help. And I would get them out on that, kind of see how that goes rather than trying to extend the coop inside and building a larger coop, because I know you're limited on space. I would just see if they have that larger run area, and with that netting that they can be outside more and get some separation. And see how that does, because I think that that will definitely, definitely help.

And then I know in some of our past Q&A sessions we've talked about with the bullying, when you first see it, if you can identify who the bully is, which you have, and it sounds like you might have two that are kind of playing that role, which is usually common. You kind of have the top hen and then the next one down and they have their, it's where we get the old adage, the pecking order from. Yeah. So that's very normal.

If you can remove them and keep them away from the main flock long enough that a new pecking order has time to be established and kind of imprinted within the flock, so to speak. And then, you bring the bullies and you introduce them back into the flock after the new pecking order has been established, it usually puts that bully back on the bottom of the pecking order, at least for a few weeks. And then they'll reestablish a new pecking order. But usually, that puts that bully from becoming top chicken again. And you'll have a cease of that. Not always. Sometimes you just have one chicken who's just like, "I am top hen, no matter what," and she'll always just go back. But sometimes it's just not keeping them out long enough for the flock to then reestablish the hierarchy and really get that cemented in.

So that is an option, just for those listening if they're dealing with that. And it's easier to sequester one chicken than it is an entire flock. Because, the one chicken you can put in a smaller, like a large dog kennel or a smaller pen. It's just easier logistically to get her out in a way. And also if she's feeling stress, sometimes they will bully other chickens because they're feeling stressed for space, or maybe food issues. And sometimes I think they're just ornery, to be honest. But if it is a stress thing like that, then she realizes, "Oh, I always have enough food. I'm not fighting the other chickens for food." And kind of gives them a chance to reset their internal issues, so to speak.

Joan: Right. Well, how long would you suggest, amount of time to keep them quarantined?

Melissa: Yeah, that is a great question. And I'm trying to remember back when I have had to quarantine. It's been a while since I've had to do that. I would say at least personally, at least two weeks. And you kind of just watch the flock. Kind of see, does it seem like someone else is becoming, are they pecking it out? Are you seeing a new hierarchy? When you put the food out, who's getting it first? Who's shooing the other ones away? And is that becoming the same chicken that's doing that consistently? And then you'll kind of know, okay, they've established their new order and then you can start to introduce the one that has been taken out, and reintroduce her back into the flock.

Joan: Okay. All right, cool.

Melissa: Yeah.

Joan: Well, fortunately we have not one but two large dog cages, so I should be able to get both of them out at the same time.

Melissa: Yeah. And I would try that. And I think, what you could first do is try the addition and sometimes it's just giving them that extra space. They just need more space. So I would try that first, because it's never fun to have to separate them out and keep them in the ... It creates more work on your part and all the things. So if you can get them to a point where they're happy without having to do that, then, so I would try that first. I would put out the new space for them. And then those, the different little boredom buster things with food, where you see people hang a head of lettuce or a head of cabbage, or something like that on a string. Or the difference suet blocks where they have to work to get to their food, it keeps them where they're having to really peck and work at things. Sometimes those can help too, if it really is a boredom issue, and you can only enlarge space so much. Making sure that they've got some things like that.

So I would try a combination of the extended space with the electric fence, and maybe some different hanging treats and things to keep them occupied. And then if that doesn't work, try isolating the top bully two girls, giving them a chance to chill, out and then reintroduce them back in. Yeah.

Joan: Okay, right.

Melissa: Yeah. And I know one of the things that you also had questions about, and as we get closer to planting and growing season, coming out of the dark short days of winter, and that is planting some things for your chickens. So, do you already have any established plants that you use in your chicken to feed them or their care, anything like that? Or is this something new that you want to do?

Joan: It would be something new. Since when I started planting everything for last year, I didn't really have any ideas of what to feed the chickens. So it's all been a learning curve. Every time I see something, I'm like, "Oh, is it safe? I don't know. Can I give it to them? Can I only give them the leaves, or can I give them the whole thing," or that type of thing. So what I want to do starting this spring and moving forward, is to at least plant, even if it's not, let's say a chicken garden, where they can go into the garden itself and eat what they want. I want to at least plant a certain amount in my garden, of food that I know is specifically good for them, safe for them. So I'm not constantly dependent on buying feed or things like that. So that's actually what I want to be able to do this year.

Melissa: Okay. Awesome. Well, the good news is there's actually quite a few of the plants that we like to grow for ourselves, that also do double duty as chicken food and, or medicinal. And sometimes it's a little bit of both. So one of those is pumpkin, or any winter squash really. My chickens love the seeds and we only seed save and roast so many of the seeds, especially acorn squash, for example. We had acorn squash last night and their seeds aren't as large as the pumpkin seeds. So I don't generally tend to save those after I've scooped them out. But the chickens love any type of seed like that in your winter squash. And they're all fine for them and they will, if you open it up, they will also peck and eat out the flesh of pumpkin or winter squash, that type of thing too. But they also really like the seeds.

And with the pumpkin specifically, there are some natural de-worming properties to it. It has antioxidants, can help with immune support, as well as potassium, vitamin A, the zinc in the seeds, as well as vitamin E. So that can be great, because most of us usually, if we have a garden space, like to grow some type of winter squash and pumpkin included in that. So it's great to be offering that to them as well. And they'll last, obviously in the end of summer, beginning of follows when those usually are harvested. But if you've got a lot of extra and can cure and store those somewhere, they'll last quite a while. We're still giving the girls, we're still eating our winter squash and I'm still giving them, actually have on the counter last night, because I cooked it too late. I wasn't going back out to the coop to take out to them today. So that can be just a real fun little easy way to get them things.

And then really is looking at the mint, not the mint garden. I was going to say the herb garden, but mint is one of the ones that I was going to say. So the herb garden, and mint is a great one because it's a perennial. You have to be careful where you plant it because it does like to take over.

Joan: I grew up with mint.

Melissa: Did you grow up with mint? Yeah.

Joan: Yeah. Shall we say, it was there when we moved in?

Melissa: Yeah, it's great if-

Joan: And it was there when I sold the house 50 years later, so.

Melissa: Yeah. What is really good if you have a black thumb. I have to say, for people who tell me like, "I have a really hard time growing things," mint might be a really good one for you to start with. And one of the great things about mint is obviously, a lot of us like mint for tea, flavoring-agent wise or mint water is one of my favorites. But it also helps to repel insects. But it can be a stimulant for hens, for egg layings, and the chickens really do like it. It's also got a lot of phytonutrients in it, antioxidant, your vitamins A, B complex, C, calcium, phosphorus, iron, manganese, and potassium. So it can actually give them quite a bit of their mineral needs.

And because you could almost harvest mint almost all year long, usually in the middle of winter it does go dormant, especially if you're in a area that gets a lot of snow. But it's one that kind of will produce from spring all the way through, until you really get those snows, or really, really hard, harsh, freezing temperatures. So it's a long one that produces a lot longer than say the pumpkin, where you're kind of limited a little bit more to the growing condition. So that's a really another great one.

And kind of a lot with a lot of the culinary herbs that we think about when we're thinking of herbs. So oregano, basil, thyme, sage, even lavender, those are all great herbs to grow for us and to cook with, but also the chickens really like them too. So those are ones that all, and most of those can also, you could grow quite a large amount as in a small space or in a container, because they're fairly prolific. So those can be great if you've got a smaller growing area, because I know you said you guys are on a quarter acre. So, definitely look at that.

And then, some of the other ones that can be really well and good for chickens, and also are pretty as well as a great companion plant is nasturtium. So nasturtiums have antiseptic and antibiotic properties and they're very rich in vitamins A and C. And they're gorgeous. They're a great companion plant. I've grown nasturtiums all throughout the garden and they're edible for us, too. But the chickens also really like them. So those can be a fun one. And they look pretty to grow for your girls. And then you may, if you've got any grassy yard areas, of course, depending, these are pretty broad across most of the country.

So I want to make sure that I hit these because there's something that people probably aren't even going to have to cultivate, that they can find growing in their area, and that would be chickweed. Chickweed is really good, can help with pain relief. It's high in vitamins and minerals. It's also rich in calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron, zinc, manganese, silicone and copper. So that can be a great way. It's green, it has a tiny little white flower on it and it just grows crazy here. It grows all over. But that's a really, really good one is chickweed.

And also plantain. Plantain is great for humans as far as wound care, also for inflammation, antidiarrheal, and it's rich in calcium, iron, vitamin B1 and the riboflavins. So, and plantain usually will grow, even in poor soil areas, rocky. Actually, plantain comes up a lot at the edge of where our gravel driveway meets the edge of the lawn, which is really actually a poor growing area, but it seems to kind of thrive even in poorer soil areas. And then, also throughout the rest of just the grass and the fields and stuff. So learning how to identify some of those. And you can get seeds and grow some of this if you're like, "Well, I don't have any growing where we are." But the good news is they usually will self-seed and kind of proliferate once they've been introduced to an area. That is in takeover mode. They're not considered highly invasive or anything like that, but just easy growers throughout the lawn or in garden beds, et cetera.

Joan: Yeah, plantain actually grows rather well, shall we say, in our yard.

Melissa: Oh, good.

Joan: I've actually been foraging just in my own yard for it, for the past four years.

Melissa: Oh, perfect. Yes.

Joan: I've got a stock of it already dried. And then I do, I did throughout the summer and into the fall, I would just pick it and toss it in for the chickens and stuff. So, yeah.

Melissa: That's great. And most, I know a lot of people know this, but not everybody. So is your dandelions, both the flowers and the leaves?

Joan: Oh, yeah. They go crazy over the flowers. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, they pick them up and run off with them. Like, "It's mine."

Melissa: Yeah. It's like this wonderful treat, which I know a lot of people battle with dandelions in the yard, or other spots like that. It's not necessarily a coveted thing to have on one's property, until you know how great it is for all the different things, then you don't mind it nearly so much. So that's really another good one. And then in the springtime, what I love is nettle leaves. So nettles are one of the first things to come up in the spring and they're high in minerals, calcium. Have protein. So those can be really great. We actually use them, you have to be careful when you're harvesting them, obviously, because they do sting. But those can be really good to feed the chickens. And then we use it as I like instead of spinach, just because it comes up naturally here and grows all over in the wooded areas, and in the edges of the yard in more shady areas. And so that can be another really good one to have for both chicken and human consumption.

So those are some of the top favorites that are easily cultivated in almost any climate. And then one of the other ones, this is great for both chickens, but as well as humans and other livestock, especially cattle. And that's echinacea. So most of us are familiar, the echinacea can help boost the immune system of course, but it can also aid in food absorption and can help aid in the treatment of, I always say this wrong, coccidiosis. I never say it right. It's one of the major chicken issue diseases that they deal with. I should have went and looked at where you typed in the search and it says, "How do you pronounce this correct," and listened to it, because I always say it wrong. Anyways, but that can be great for that.

And I have to say, I have noticed that the chickens, when they're just roaming about our yard, when they're in free-range mode, they tend to go for the blossoms of flowers. Apparently we have very similar tastes, because what I find pretty and tasty and I want for myself, they tend to beat me to it quite often, and have the same thought process there. So, anyways. But that can be another really great one to put in. And it looks pretty as part of the landscape, et cetera. But serves some really, really good purposes. Another one is lemon balm and chamomile. Those can also be two really good ones, as well as dill. My chickens go crazy for dill, and dill self-seeds and can be quite prolific. So that can be another really good one, too. So it's kind of a lot of the herbs and the leafy greens can be really good.

And then if you have any of your radishes, if you grow radishes and they go to pod, you don't get them harvested soon enough, that can be good though. It's one of the ones you want to feed in moderation to chickens so that you don't get any digestive upset. So that one's kind of maybe two to three times a week, not something you want to just give them every day or just allow them to have free rain on.

Though, I have to say overall with my girls, I've noticed that most of the time, naturally they seem to have a pretty good idea for what they should be eating and what they shouldn't. And I've not really ever had any issue with them over indulging even when they're free-ranging, and really making themselves sick by eating something. Not to say that they couldn't, of course, but I have to say overall, they've had access to the radish pods out in the garden where I had a whole row that I didn't get to when we had weird weather, and they bolted and went to seed really fast. And they just would kind of come over and get them at will. But they never really just went hog wild and had issues.

Joan: Okay.

Melissa: Yeah, so those, that is kind of our top picks there. And we'll have this in the blog post that accompanies this episode. So for anybody who's listening and is like, "Oh goodness, I don't know if I can get all of this written down," don't worry. We'll have that in a blog post on the website, so that you can go and look at that in further detail. And then in regards to the chickens, was there any other questions there that you would like some guidance on? Or did we kind of cover the main areas of concern?

Joan: It has to do with permitting.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: Here we go. I'll try to make my long story short.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: I took about a year to research chickens, and ordinances and laws, and so on and so forth. Because, the city I live in is literally just outside of New York City. Ironically, chickens are legal inside New York City, no kidding, but they are. So if I still lived in Brooklyn, I could have chickens, no problem. All right. Everyone I spoke to, everything I looked up said that it was, I guess lawful, whatever, to have chickens here. Until apparently, I can only assume, a neighbor complained, even though we didn't let our chickens out into our run until after eight o'clock in the morning, which technically the noise ordinance only goes till 7:00 AM. We always made sure they were in as soon as it got dark, so no later than eight o'clock at night.

And I say that because we got a notice on our door about a month and a half ago, just stating that the housing department wanted to do an inspection. And since, as you can see behind me, our house is still in a state of construction. So we assumed it had to do with that, until my husband went to speak with them, spoke with the actual head supervisor. And he said, "No, it has to do with your chickens, and we have two weeks to take care of them. So we are finding a new place to put them inside our house, so they will no longer be out in the yard.

Melissa: Wow. So they actually, did they give you where there was a bylaw or an ordinance that actually spelled everything out?

Joan: Well, he said, because everything I had found was that there was a new ordinance that went into effect that actually made it legal, as long as they weren't for sale. In other words, so I wasn't going to work, shall we say, or to sell. But the supervisor said that ordinance was never passed, even though everything I found said that it has been. And he said, "No, it's still not, and you can't get a permit for it. It's still illegal to have chickens within the city limits." And he basically said, "Okay, you have two weeks." Now, we don't have anything in writing yet. So of course, that leads me to believe we've got a little bit more than two weeks, although I don't want to push it, and we don't have anywhere else to go with them. It's not like I can hand them over to my brother or something to hold onto them for us. So we're basically going to build their coop and a run in our basement.

Melissa: Okay. So I'm curious, so he didn't give you anything in writing. So did he actually share an ordinance that says it is against the law? Did he actually have anything that showed, that documenting you could not, out of curiosity?

Joan: Well, I wasn't there. So as far as I know, he showed my husband the original ordinance that said it was illegal. Because, I found both.

Melissa: Okay.

Joan: When I was doing my research, I found the one that said it was illegal. And then the one that's newer that said it wasn't, as long as you met these stipulations. And that's one of the reasons why we built the original coop inside the garage. That's why we made it a certain size. That's why we made the run a certain size and built it in a certain configuration. And I called about getting an in inspection, and about getting it permitted. And literally had the city clerk tell me, "Oh, that's not necessary. You don't need a permit." We even had the woman who's in charge of animal control for the city say, "Oh no, you're fine. Don't worry about it." So obviously I'm confused.

Melissa: Right.

Joan: And it falls under housing, as if you were running new electric in your house. The same guy who inspects your electric in your house would be the one to say, "No, you can't have chickens." And he said, it falls under fire, under a fire hazard, which doesn't make any sense to me because there's no way it could catch on fire, unless someone literally poured gas on it and lit a match.

Melissa: Yeah, well, heat lamp would be the only thing, but you're not using a heat lamp.

Joan: No, I'm not.

Melissa: So therefore, yeah. Yeah. Obviously, I am not in your situation. I have not legally went through this myself, so I'm not giving, yeah.

Joan: Oh, no, no.

Melissa: Not to be construed as legal advice and all of that, but yeah. Do you have any of the documentation, even if it's just date and time of when you talked to the two other people that said it was fine?

Joan: No, I mean, I probably have notes, I make notes all over the place. I'm sure I have notes on my calendar and things like that.

Melissa: So who, is there a public meeting where the ordinance that said you could keep the chickens to these specifications, that he said didn't actually pass? Do you know what? I would try and take that, go and get support from the community and try and get that officially passed myself.

Joan: Right, I was thinking of finding it again, printing it out, and then even going so far as to contact the mayor's office.

Melissa: Yeah, that's what I would do. I wouldn't sit, I mean-

Joan: Oh yeah. I'm not planning on just sitting.

Melissa: Yeah, you didn't strike me as the type who would, but yeah, I didn't think that you would. But I mean, just how silly is it, in this day and age that someone can tell us it's illegal to have a few chickens when it's in your home, it's your property. I mean, yeah. You could have, that is just the silliest thing.

Joan: Oh, I'm sorry. I have to remind you, I live in New York.

Melissa: Oh, honey. I live in Washington State and we've got some real silly things here too. So I know it's a strange world that we're in, with some of the things that are legal and are not legal.

Joan: We are looking to move.

Melissa: I can't say that I blame you, but that in itself still is going to take you all time and whatnot. Yeah, I would, yeah, just from personal, yeah, I would really push back.

Joan: Yeah, I'm want to contact the city council, the mayor's office, and then also here we have something known as county legislatures members, one of which covers the city I live in. So I'm going to contact him directly also, and just see if there's anything that we can do. If nothing else, maybe if we can get grandfathered in under maybe an older law or something like that. But there's literally nothing out there that says, since this other ordinance came into existence, and nowhere does it say that it never passed. I literally looked everywhere I could think of for a year before we got them. And like I said, I called people, I spoke to the county clerk's office, I spoke to all kinds of people and everybody was like, "Oh no, it's fine. You should be fine. Don't worry about it."

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Well if you-

Joan: So, this was literally the first person who said no.

Melissa: Yeah, I would ask him to say, "Well, can you show me the vote? When and where you say that this isn't passed? Because it's listed as an ordinance."

Joan: Yeah. Okay.

Melissa: And make him do some work.

Joan: Nice. Yeah. Well, I guess my real question comes in aside from that, and thank you, I will definitely look into who I can talk to. But I guess it all kind of falls into the same thing, is that I'm still going to have to find ways to keep them interested, given the space. Fortunately, our basement is big enough that we can do this in and we can still have basement. The foundation of our house, the basement itself, I'll guess and say is probably about a thousand square feet.

Melissa: Okay. So it's big. Yeah. And with a complete indoor environment like that, I mean, yes, it's, well obviously the venting, obviously proper airflow, and then a lot of the deep litter method because that's going to help control smell in all kind of those things. But really, yeah, it's just even within in the basement space that they do have the adequate space where they can run around, again, some of those boredom buster type items that they can have a chance to really peck at, and keep them kind of occupied as far as that goes. Yeah. I am so sorry that you have to get that creative in order to have chickens.

Joan: Well, I'm so attached to them now, it's like I don't want to have to get rid of them, and I certainly don't want them to come and confiscate them. Because you and I both know what will happen to them if that happens, and I will put them in my car and drive away before that happens, to be perfectly honest. Yeah.

Melissa: I don't blame you.

Joan: I'll call my dad North Carolina and go, "Hey dad, I'm going to bring you 12 guests for the next six months."

Melissa: Quick road trip, dad. Surprise.

Joan: Quick road trip dad, bringing you a present. Yeah, that's it. I'm bringing a present. Oh, 12 presents. Yeah.

Melissa: Hey, with the price of eggs right now.

Joan: Oh, God. He'd probably be excited.

Melissa: He'd probably be like, "That is an excellent gift. You're so generous."

Joan: I know. He'd be like, thank you so much. Yeah, but we figured at the very least for the time being that we're going to do this, and even my husband has said he's not giving up, but right now he's more concerned about making sure that they're protected. And we figure that, that is the easiest way to keep them protected. Because even if we just let them in the coop, it's in the garage. And so technically, if the inspector comes, he can go in the garage, but he can't walk in the house.

Melissa: There you go. Well, I like that you're-

Joan: Illegal.

Melissa: Yeah. You've got that part down. And I hope that you're able to kind of prove to him that there's this ordinance that says it's fine. And it sucks when we have to be the one, quite honestly, that are fighting the battle. But honestly, a lot of times that's how we pave the way for other people to be able to have chickens, and to be able to do that type what they want on their property and for their health, and all of those things. Somebody has to fight the battle. And so not that any of us ever want to fight it, but kudos to you guys, you and your husband both for being united and being like, "No, we're going to pursue this and bring information, and maybe we do have to get an ordinance changed or voted on, and now is the time." So yeah, you'll definitely have to keep us abreast of how that goes. And yeah, I know it. That type of stuff is never fun, but sometimes just necessary, so.

Joan: Yeah, it's interesting because I'm the person that whenever we have a problem with the bank or the credit cards or whatever, my husband just goes, "Hang on one second, I'm going to give you to my wife." And he hands me the phone and then he gets this look of like, "Oh, now I feel sorry for them." Because I end up getting us stuff for free, and all those things. So, I give them what for and the how to, but I do it in the nicest way.

Melissa: Right. And yeah, we need that in the world. Sometimes people just, and I'm sure the inspector thinks that he is following what he's supposed to, and sometimes they just need their eyes opened up or the rules just need to change, so hopefully, you'll get to do that.

Joan: Right. Well, that's my hope is that if indeed he's correct, that the ordinance that I found never got passed, is my hope is to then get it brought up again and get it passed.

Melissa: And get it passed. And I'm sure, I mean, especially who knows how long ago that ordinance was, if it didn't get passed. But since then, I would think that the greater community seeing egg prices and kind of the fragility of our food system, would be in more support of it. You'd be able to garner more support now than even in the past, for whatever reason if it didn't, that you'd be able to get it to go through.

Joan: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, Joan, thank you for coming on and being a member of the Academy, and I can't wait to hear about your success, because I know you're going to be successful here.

Joan: Well, thank you for the encouragement. I greatly appreciate it.

Melissa: Well, I hope that you enjoyed that episode. And if you would like to get on the wait list for when we open the doors in March to the Pioneering Today Academy, simply go to melissaknorris.com/pta. Melissaknorris.com/pta, and you will see where you can join that, to be notified, and be first in line as soon as we open the doors.

You can find all of the links to some of the different articles where we go more in depth on specific things and resources for this episode at the blog, which is melissaknorris.com/378, because this is episode number 378. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. We'll be back here next week. Blessings and Mason jars for now.