Thyroid, Adrenal Glands & Hormone Health

Melissa: Hey, pioneers. Welcome to episode number 348. Today's episode, we are going to be talking about women's hormones, thyroid, including adrenal fatigue, as well as autoimmune issues with Dr. Shannyn. So, if you listened to any of the past episodes where I have talked about my own health journey, then you're probably familiar with how I had my stomach and esophagus biopsied for cancer and was able to find complete healing by changing my food and diet. I also did some episodes talking about thyroid, specifically a recent episode that I did, episode number 342, with Rebekah Rhodes, where we were sharing about our journey with autoimmune disease. And I've mentioned in a couple of spots, for those of you who have been longtime listeners or caught those episodes, where I had done some special testing on hormones and food testing at the beginning of this year in January.

I was on a specific protocol and following that in order to get healing. And many, many, many of you have commented or emailed me or messaged me and asked for more information about that. So, I actually brought one of the doctors on, Dr. Shannyn, that I am being treated by their Journey to Wellness clinic. Dr. Shannyn is a doctor of functional medicine, chiropractic, holistic health advocate, and is a nationally known speaker and educator. She is a huge passion for women's hormones, thyroid and autoimmune issues. She was diagnosed with fibromyalgia at a young age and began her lifelong quest to find non-medical answers to common health issues. Dr. Shannyn is married to her best friend, Dr. Justin Pearce. They have two kids, and a successful business online helping women find their root cause and answers.

In the process of building her amazing life, Dr. Shannyn experienced something a lot of high achieving women face, which was total burnout. It was from that breakdown that she pivoted her focus to work exclusively with women who want to prioritize their health and create full life freedom. We will have several links in the show notes, as well as the blog post that accompanies this episode, which you can access at melissaknorris.com/348. That's just the numbers 348, melissaknorris.com/348, because this is episode number 348, where we will link to a lot of different resources that Dr. Shannyn Pearce offers as well as some of the diagnostic tools that you'll hear her talk about later in this episode. So, we talk a lot of different things about modern medicine versus functional holistic medicine and different hormone pathways, how the food affects that out. It is a jam-packed episode. I am excited for you to listen to this one. So, without further ado, we're going to jump right to it. Well, Dr. Shannyn, welcome to the Pioneering Today Podcast.

Dr. Shannyn: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I've been waiting for this.

Melissa: Yes. I have been extremely excited as well because, as I was sharing with you right before we got started recording, I have had so many questions come in from listeners and readers where I have mentioned some of the stuff that I've been going through on my health journey and what I've been doing, going through with you as a practitioner. Oh my goodness, so many folks have questions and want to seek, which I love and I myself am here and I know from some of your story, that's the case too, but really want to seek how to actually heal and give the body what it needs to heal instead of slapping a bandaid on something and treating a symptom, but actually true health and true healing. So, thank you so much for coming on today.

Dr. Shannyn: My pleasure. Love it. Yes, you've been doing lots of hard work yourself. I'm very proud of all your diligent effort.

Melissa: Thank you. I have to confess, the past month has not been as diligent as I would like, so I'm gearing up to get things back. [inaudible 00:04:39].

Dr. Shannyn: Perfect. But you know what, that's real life though, right? It's like, I can't say that I'm always perfect, but I know my limits. I know when it's time to say, "All right, get back on before this becomes a problem." So yeah, I get it.

Melissa: Yeah. And I think that's what I really like is because not only, in my experience with what I've been through with you so far, but you understand it because you have went through it. I think sometimes, and I don't know if this is a male, female thing or not. I hate to throw that out as an issue when it's not always the case, but I feel oftentimes when I have sought out medical care that if the practitioner hadn't went through it to some degree, that they had a harder time understanding what I was talking about. So, I appreciate that you have walked this road so that you know what's, like you said, the real life application of going through it.

Dr. Shannyn: For me, that was one of the big things. I have a heart for women's healthcare because that's where I, in my own journey, have found the biggest gaps because it really is, women's healthcare is different than men's healthcare. And not that male doctors aren't wonderful, I'm married to one, my husband does great. He works well with people. But if they don't understand that truly the physiology is so different and the approach to a woman's body has to be different, you end up with a lot of women feeling very dismissed in their healthcare. Maybe that's what you've experienced as well. Almost like, "Oh, well, it's hormones." Or, "Oh, you're just stressed." Or, "Oh, you're just a mom." It's like, no, physiologically my body is different. There are things that change all the time in a woman's body. And once you learn to harness that and support it well, really cool things happen. I just don't feel like enough practitioners are doing that for women. That's why we're so frustrated with our health.

Melissa: Yeah. And too, and we will get into the nitty-gritty, I know for those of you listening, you've been waiting for this. I promise we'll get there too. But I feel that too often in modern society and even modern healthcare, just for lack of a better term there, because so much of society and so many people are base level of what is normal, it is not normal, but because that's the base it's like, "Oh, well, it's pretty normal for you to feel like this," or, "It's pretty normal for you to experience X, Y, Z." But that's not truly normal. It's only normal within the last 50 years because of so many factors. But that's something that frustrated me too, as I was going to different practitioners and they're like, "Oh, well, your labs look level. It doesn't matter that your hair is literally falling out by the handfuls." Anyways, yeah. That's a whole nother probably soap box we won't go down.

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah. But it isn't that, we say it all the time, common doesn't make it normal, but it does normalize it. So, everyone's kind of commiserating on these issues thinking it's normal, because if you ask five of your friends, if they feel good, they're going to say no. They don't feel good. They're tired. They're inflamed. They're overweight. So, we do start to believe it's just what our bodies do as we age. And that is where I get really fired up about teaching. That is not what's supposed to happen. We don't just start to degenerate and fall apart. There is always an answer. There is always a reason. If your body has a symptom, I promise there's a reason. And the cool stuff happens when you finally figure out what that reason is.

Melissa: Yeah. So, full disclosure, because I am a patient. So, Dr. Shannyn, anything that you want to talk about that is particular to my specific case, you have full permission. I know that with HIPAA and health and privacy, that that can get kind of odd. So, I am an open book for anything that we want to talk about in this episode. But I specifically came to you guys, because I have been lucky enough that with just on my own health and I have episodes on this that we'll link to, but I was able to get off of thyroid medication and not have to be on that anymore, but I was still dealing with a lot of inflammation and that was weight gain as well. But also women's hormones. So, estrogen, feeling like I had some estrogen dominance and just a lot of different things around that, that just didn't feel like my hormonal function was where it should be and some symptoms like that.

So, that's initially why I first found you and had the different testing done that you guys offer. What I found really interesting is I was thinking that because my testosterone levels are low, that you guys would just give me a testosterone cream, to help bridge that gap, that my body wasn't producing the testosterone levels where they should be, which is what I suspected. But then when we did the lab work, that's actually what we saw. So, I was actually really surprised when we had our consult and you're like, "No, actually we need to figure out why your body is not creating the testosterone and fix those pathways." So, it does it on its own. There was a part of me, I'll be honest, it's like, "No, I just want the cream and the easy fix, please."

Dr. Shannyn: Yes. Yep. Again, like I told, because I have been there, when you feel bad or you have an issue, it's so tempting to want the quick fix. And I say, yes, all the time, I said this all the time too. There's a lot of things I say all the time, but I'm going to keep saying them until people actually listen, you can do that temporarily, but you cannot mess with anatomy and physiology without some type of repercussion. So, you can do the testosterone. But what is rarely talked about is like, "Okay, too much testosterone then converts to more of an estrogen dominance, then converts to inflammation in your hormones, then converts to potential adrenal fatigue." I mean, there's so many things that, yes, you might feel better for a few weeks and that's wonderful. Ultimately, you're not going to win that game. You are not smarter than your body and your physiology.

We have to honor the hierarchy in which our body heals. And when you walk through it in the right order, that's when you get true long-lasting results. Instead of trying to skip steps to just feel temporarily better, which is unfortunately what most of us have been trained to do with medicine. If you have an abnormal lab number, here's the medication that fixes the number, whether you feel better or truly get better or not. I think that's, unfortunately, what happens too often.

So, for example, the thyroid example, you go there feeling terrible. Let's say your TSH is off. They put you on a thyroid medication. You come back for your checkup six weeks later, you still feel terrible, you haven't lost any weight, your hair's not different, you're thinking it didn't work, but your new labs come back normal and they say, "Great, your medication's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Your thyroid is balanced. You're good." You still feel badly, but there's no other option. From that point, it's like, "Well, maybe you're stressed. You should probably lose weight." But they don't tell you how to lose weight. They're just going to send you on your way. Just because you can manipulate a number doesn't mean you fix the problem.

Melissa: Yes. So much truth there. I also will say, just because in the past, I actually had a family member who was on thyroid medication, because their thyroid was not functioning at all. They just went off of it cold turkey without going through their doctor and looking at labs and whatnot, and experienced an extreme health issue because of doing that. I know that you were not saying that, but just because I've personally experienced this, please do not think that we are saying right now if you were on thyroid medication to just stop it, that it's not doing anything if you're on it. That's not at all what we're saying. But I think this is the thing is it's actually possible for some people, not all, of course, this depends on each person's health, but it is possible to actually heal your body without having to use medicine or being able to then come off of the medicine depending on where you fall in that spectrum and what's going on with you.

I think that the healing aspect is the part that is so important for us to understand, because so many times, myself included, I didn't know that that was an option. So many times when we go on medications, for thyroid, for example, then that's just it, because the healing aspect is never really talked about or given for whatever reason. So, I love that we're going to dive into that. So, specifically within women's hormones, and of course the thyroid and adrenal glands and that, it kind of goes together. I know that if you have labs for each individual person, because we all are going to have some different things and you don't really know until you actually can look at accurate labs, et cetera.

But what is some of the... I guess, say someone's like, "Well, I can't do the individual labs right now," for whatever reason, is there some type of guideline that somebody can use if they suspect that they have some hormonal or thyroid issues, et cetera, to help them down that healing path until they can get to a point where they could actually go and get the individual labs done and then have a very customized plan based upon where they're at? Or is that a thing?

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah, I mean, in part, it is. So, I very much believe that individualized lab testing is always your best first place to start. And if that's not doable lifestyle-wise, the most important changes you can start making, one, I am a giant advocate for stress management, thyroid, hormones, adrenals. They all will have lower than optimal function if there is physical and emotional stressors going on in your life. So, implementing breath work or meditation or journaling, or if it's whatever works best for you, but really setting aside at least 10 minutes a day, and even that's minimal, but where you just sit and allow your nervous system to come back and to rest. So few of us actually intentionally do that every single day, managing stress, making boundaries, you cannot imagine how much of a difference even just that makes for hormones and thyroid.

Then start removing the things that you're putting in your body that are creating inflammation. You always have that choice. Minimize the inflammatory foods, stop added sugar, stop dyes and colors. If you are a soda drinker, stop that immediately. There are just things that you can do to at least start opening up your body to have more potential to heal while you're waiting on your specific individual answers. So, I really think minimizing what goes in your body that's toxic, and getting a really good handle on your stress response are things everybody can implement immediately.

Melissa: Yeah. I think it's funny because even though I have done the individual lab testing with you, as you were just talking, I have not been doing a good job of daily stress management. I feel like I'm confession time.

Dr. Shannyn: So, that is the piece that everyone drops, but I'm telling you, a body can't heal in a state of stress, we're designed that way. If we're not in a relaxed nervous system state, you can't expect your nervous system, your immune system, your endocrine system to work properly. Because I know that, not just about you, but about all my women, that's always the piece we forget first that is inside our private group, Ms. Melissa, what we are working on the entire month of July. So just get on that and we will work together to reestablish a good stress management routine, because I do believe it's so important. And it's a piece that really gets missed a lot and makes such a big difference.

Melissa: The reason she's saying that is because I told her I didn't want to join any type of private group, because I didn't have enough time. She's totally calling me out.

Dr. Shannyn: [inaudible 00:16:44] time could get you, 10 minutes, I'm not asking forever, but listen, I get it. I truly do. But, for me, one of my biggest breakthroughs after figuring out what my true root causes were, when I actually set aside and put boundaries around it, this is my time that I put aside for me. I got the biggest jump in my healing.

Melissa: Thank you for that. I will go and look at the group now, I've been properly chastisized.

Dr. Shannyn: Sorry. I have a cough. We're coming through a cold at my house.

Melissa: Oh, no problem. Yeah.

Dr. Shannyn: Okay. Better. Sorry.

Melissa: Okay. Awesome.

Dr. Shannyn: Edit that out. Definitely.

Melissa: Yes, we will. Let's take a five second pause, just so there's a big pause with no noise. So, when women typically come to you, I'm saying women, because I know that's where you specialize and I know that there are some guys out there that listen to the podcast, love our male listeners, in fact, a lot of husbands will listen to the podcast and then share it with their wives, which I think is really fun. So, I just want to acknowledge that we probably do have some guys listening, but I know a lot of what we're talking about today has to do with women specifically.

But what are some of the most common symptoms, I guess I would say, that maybe people don't realize are symptoms of hormone issues. I guess too, we should probably talk about, because thyroid function and levels are hormones, but oftentimes when we say the word hormone, we really just think estrogen, progesterone, I think. We don't even necessarily go into testosterone, even though women of course have testosterone. So, could you give us an overview of these are symptoms that can be related to actually hormone issues that people don't always realize is a symptom of those being off?

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah. So, let's go through two different scenarios. There are two types of women typically that come to me. One is the woman who has kind of an adrenal pattern like you had, which is the high cortisol, higher stress. That woman is usually maybe getting a little bit of anxiety, feeling very overwhelmed, putting on weight that they can't lose, feeling like things that used to work in the past for weight loss, for energy, for mood stability, just aren't working the same way, really feeling inflamed, maybe some bloating is happening. That is typically the things that you're going to start to notice when you're in that higher cortisol, higher stress, starting to get those pretty major hormone imbalances. Unfortunately, most women don't catch it at that point and a body can't stay running on high cortisol for very long before it starts to get weaker. That's when we go into what's called adrenal insufficiency or what more people call adrenal fatigue, where we actually start running on lower cortisol.

When our cortisol starts to deplete, then it starts to eat up our hormones and we end up with low progesterone or low estrogen. And that's the woman who typically feels exhausted, heavy. I could sleep 12 hours and I'm still exhausted. Things that used to be really fun for me don't feel fun anymore. It's really hard to control my mood. I feel like my emotions are all over the place. Just really feeling like everything is harder to accomplish, but without a reason for feeling like that, that is really typical of going into that more adrenal insufficiency, low hormone. So, you could be on either side. The hormone dominance is much more inflammatory, some anxiety, feeling very inflamed. And then the lower hormone feels, my best way to describe it is just, so heavy, like everything is just harder. So, you might relate to one of those over the other.

Those are pretty good signs on both sides that there is imbalance, both in the adrenal glands and the hormones like your thyroid, your estrogen, your progesterone. But knowing how far into the process you are, if you're more the inflamed, higher cortisol versus that really exhausted cortisol, just usually means it's more of a chronic issue and has likely been unaddressed for too long that now you've transitioned into that phase as well.

So, the reason I'm such a stickler for testing is protocols for both of those things look dramatically different. So I don't often suggest starting a whole lot of anything. You'll notice I maybe only suggest two or three supplements openly, publicly for people to try that I feel like are safe for everybody, because even an herb, or supplement, or homeopathic, or something natural, if it's not right for your pathway, for your levels, for your hormones, you can still end up doing yourself more of a disservice, which is why getting really good information up front, investing in a testing to then be able to make the most accurate decisions for yourself moving forward is why we get really cool results with the people we work with, because everything becomes individualized. That makes, I mean, the process so much simpler for the patient.

Melissa: Yeah. It's interesting, as you were going through those, the point I'm at now is with obviously that high cortisol spike. So, we're dealing with that and the inflammation with myself. But I have been, I did not know you back then, I have actually been on the other spectrum of that, where when you were saying that heavy and I would get nine to eight, 10 hours of sleep every night, but would wake up so exhausted that I still remember, I was hanging clothes out on the line, and this was about 10 years ago, but I was hanging clothes out on the line before leaving for work, and I was standing on our cement back patio, literally hard cement. And I remember looking down in it and I was so tired, even though I had been being in bed and actually sleeping for at least eight hours.

I remember looking down at it and thought, "I would give anything if I could just lay down right here on the cement and just go back to sleep before leaving for work." So, when you were... I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I've been in that spot." And I'm not in that spot now, because we did do the labs, but yeah. That's a horrible place to be in as well. That is definitely not normal. If anybody is listening to this and you are feeling like that... Now, if you just had a stressful week, say, or you did really get not very good sleep for a couple of days, that's different of just being tired because of external circumstances. But that deep exhaustion that we're talking about, oh my gosh, until you've experienced that, which I hope you don't, but for those of you who are listening and you maybe are going through that right now, that is not normal. And that's a horrible place to be. I still remember that time vividly and am doing my best to not ever have to go back there.

Dr. Shannyn: I mean, that's exactly part of my story. I remember being so exhausted that I would wake up and from the minute my eyes would open, I would count how many hours before I could go back to sleep again. There was just no function. Then I felt like everything I was doing was at half capacity. I remember thinking like, "I'm sucking at work. I'm sucking at home. I'm barely getting things done, because I can barely..." I was just getting through the day. I wasn't being efficient. I wasn't enjoying my life. I wasn't happy. And I had no reason not to be happy. I was just so sick and tired that nothing was bringing me joy. For me, that was the time when I knew something is not right. Exhaustion, can't handle the emotions, feeling like the joy is starting to disappear for not circumstantial even. That's when you know you're going into burnout.

We talk about that burnout word so often, because I think there's a lot of women who are truly in physical and emotional burnout, but chalk it up to, "I'm a mom. I'm busy. I'm tired. I have a job." All these things when, yes, you can be a level of tired, but that's different than burnout. So, being able to identify which side you're on, because when you hit that burnout phase, it is time to reach out for help. That is not the grit and bear it and make it through it time, you need help, you need resources, you need to be able to come through that, so it doesn't become major issues.

Because what doesn't get talked about a lot is how living in a chronic immune system flare with abnormal adrenal function and imbalanced hormones, create autoimmune disease, they create long-term damage that if we would take care of these problems as they surface, the statistics on the amount of women getting cancer, autoimmune disease, chronic illness, degenerative diseases would change dramatically. We just typically don't take control of our health until it becomes a condition versus making sure you're balancing things as they become imbalanced and not waiting for a diagnosis.

Melissa: Yeah. So, talking about burnout, adrenal burnout, or adrenal fatigue, adrenal issues is something that... I knew about low thyroid, because my mom actually had had low thyroid for a number of years. So, I kind of knew what her symptoms were and her story were. So, I was aware of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, both with the thyroid, and as well as being a pharmacy tech, at that time, I'd been was working as a pharmacy tech for 18 years. So, I was very familiar with filling, excuse me, Synthroid or Armour Thyroid depending on where people's T3 and T4 levels and all of that were at.

But adrenal fatigue, the first time I heard that, because there's not a prescription medication that I'm aware of, I should say, that people get filled or even talk about their adrenal. It's all about, from the pharmaceutical place that I come from, was all about the thyroid. So, for people who were like me, who had never really... Maybe they'd heard adrenal, but they didn't... What is the adrenal's purpose within the body? And when that starts to fatigue, what are some things, again, not person specific, but those general overall things that you mentioned can be applied, and there's very few of them that can be done just with a broad stroke? But can you talk to that a little bit so that people have a good understanding of that?

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah. Your adrenal glands have so many more jobs than anyone gives them credit for. And they really are more of a master controller than even the thyroid is. To give you a good example of that, on a thyroid medication, Synthroid, levothyroxine, Armour, whatever it is. If you go on their website, the Synthroid website, the levothyroxine website, under the contraindications, the number one contraindication reason you should not be on thyroid medication is if you have adrenal insufficiency. Because they know how much the adrenals regulate the thyroid, and it can make it dangerous to be stimulating more thyroid hormone with an adrenal issue.

Yet, my question to any woman on thyroid medication is, did they check your adrenals before putting you on medication? Often the answer is no, when potentially the adrenals were the problem the whole time, because your adrenals really help that feedback loop to your thyroid. They're responsible for your response to stress, not allowing stress to become disease. They have an immune system component. They're huge for autoimmune issues. They help metabolize your blood glucose. They help with weight loss. They help with... I mean, there, I could go on and on. Your adrenal glands have more functions than your thyroid do and they are so important to maintain balance with.

But because the typical things that we have in our day to day, inflammation and toxins from our environment, our food, our water, stress from circumstances and physical stresses on our body, like chronic infections, overgrowth in the gut, inflammation in the body, those are all things that create an imbalance in your adrenal glands. So, you hit the nail on the head. The reason why it's not spoken about medically is because there is not a pill, there's not even a supplement that I can give you that fixes your adrenal glands. My job would be so much easier if there was, there's not.

The way you fix your adrenal glands is by removing the physical and emotional stress so that your adrenal glands can regenerate. So, the key is finding out, "Okay, where is my inflammation? Do I have infections? Do I have the hormone imbalance?" And while you're correcting those, you can support your adrenals with wonderful things like Ashwagandha and Rhodiola. I love California poppy. Those are three of my favorite stress management supplements that are relatively safe for everybody. But they're really only supporting, they're not fixing. The only way to truly fix your adrenal glands is to get your body back to homeostasis, remove the physical and emotional stressors as best as you can. There will always be some of those things going on in life. That's okay. But the more of them we remove, you open up capacity for your body to regenerate. That's how we get well-balanced adrenal glands.

Melissa: Okay. Thank you. I was saying amen there in the background. My Pentecostal upbringing was being very... Because I don't think that a lot of people, unless they've started to do some research or have maybe been in the medical field for a while, realize that the majority of the training and the money funded with pharmaceutical reps, et cetera, that go and talk to the doctors and show them things. Of course, each doctor is responsible for what they prescribe, et cetera. I don't want to paint all doctors with a bad brush, because that's not true either, but if there is not a prescription medication, then the labs aren't going to be done on it, in most cases, and the doctor, they don't have a pill to prescribe. So, it's kind of brushed over. Just like, yes, I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Yeah, there's no money in it because there's no actual prescription for adrenal." So, we just don't look at it or talk about it in modern medicine for the most part.

Dr. Shannyn: So, adrenals are huge for that too, but also Epstein–Barr, which was a root cause for both you and I. People ask all the time, "So, why don't my doctors test for this? How can I get my doctor to test for this?" But the same deal is they're probably not going to test for it, because if it does come back positive for chronic Epstein–Barr infection, and then you say, "Okay, doc, how do we fix it?" They're going to say, "Oh, I don't know. I don't have medication for that. There's no prescription for that." So, they're not going to test things that they can't then give you an answer for, which is why it's rarely tested unless you're in an acute flare-up that they could give an antiviral medication for. But it's so rare.

The same for adrenals, because let's say it does come back that you have a cortisol issue or DHA issue. What are they going to do from that point forward? There really isn't a quick fix. So, now they're just opening up a can of worms they don't feel like they can help you with. And people, because of how the education system goes for especially medical doctors is they really are only taught things they can treat. They only have a finite amount of time to learn these things. So, they're taught diagnosis, disease, intervention. So they're not taught a lot of these things that they can't intervene on.

I actually just did an adrenal fatigue post on social media. And it's so funny because you will see these doctors come out of the woodwork saying, "Oh adrenal fatigue's not a real thing. It's been debunked. We were taught in school that this isn't real. This is something that you natural doctors always talk about." And it breaks my heart, because women are struggling, they're suffering, they're being dismissed because of ideologies like that, that this isn't a real thing. Just because you don't treat it doesn't mean it's not a real thing. But they have to stop saying things like that because then women are left to feel crazy. Like, "It is all in my head. Well, maybe it's not really that." When it is one of probably the most common things I see on labs is major adrenal imbalance, because of years of physical and emotional stress and inflammation.

Melissa: Yeah. Yes. I've been part of different conversations about the adrenal thing. Is it real? Is it not? I'm like, look, it's a part of your body. And every single part of our body can have a point where it doesn't function correctly. If it's not functioning correctly, then it is going to create a problem regardless if you want to acknowledge that or not, or if there has been money to fund studies on it, which the money to fund studies is backed and done primarily by pharmaceutical industry, if there is money to be made by creating a prescription or a drug to treat that. And if not, then they don't fund studies on it. That's why we have so much... We are so understudied as far as scientific, created lab studies, et cetera, on even herbal medication.

Which, for me, part of me is like, "Well, thank God, because that means we actually can use herbs, because it's not regulated." Which also has... It's [inaudible 00:34:03], you'll see whenever you go to buy herbal supplements, not FDA regulated or monitored, et cetera, language. Part of me is like, "Well, hallelujah." But the other part of me thinks that it's kind of sad though, because we really have to look outside at other countries like Germany who actually uses herbs in their true medical practice. The German E Commission to actually get scientific data-based studies and stuff on herbs, because the US is so focused only on the monetary aspect of it.

Dr. Shannyn: Well, I say the same thing is like, if we all took faith in only things that were regulated by the FDA, I mean, they have put out a lot of things that have been shown to be terrible for us. I don't know if that's my gold standard of what's good for me anymore. But yeah. But it's also potentially, and this is something I have a big passion for is I don't think I'm ever going to fit or holistic doctors are ever going to fit in the medical paradigm. I think for a lot of years, we thought we could make a blend or we could do it together and I'm open to that. I co-manage [inaudible 00:35:07]. I'm very open to that. But it's become so abundantly clear that we need to create our own system and have our own standards and have our own testing and have our own funding and stop asking for permission from an industry that doesn't want to see it our way.

So, I think that was a big a-ha moment for me is we don't have to be like that. We don't even have to be in the same industry. But we do have to bring the holistic industry up many levels, be able to really stand behind it, show people that this is valid, that it's real. And one of the things I really hope to do in my lifetime is bring functional and integrative medicine to the masses in an affordable way, that they know they have options if they desire to use a more natural approach. Because right now, for most people, that's not even an option or they don't even know that's an option. I think that's where the biggest disservice is this has to be on a much larger platform. It really does have to be really reputable and then it has to be accessible.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, because I didn't know that what you provide and the level of [inaudible 00:36:15]. I didn't know that was a thing until... Actually it's a Instagram... People like to complain about social media and there's always pros and cons to everything. But I have to say that social media is I actually found a lot of wonderful things through social media, but one of my Instagram friends, she was sharing that she had just had lab work done and what she was changing and some of the things that she was doing. So, I messaged her and I'm like, "What kind of lab work did you have done that to be aware of this and et cetera?" And she shared then your Instagram profile with me. And then I followed the links and went down the proverbial path there.

But you're right, because I didn't know that was an option and I have been very holistic and natural-minded and been in these circles for almost a decade now. I didn't know that what you offered was out there until I, just thankfully word of mouth happened, happened to see it. So, you're right. It does need to be the level of awareness that there are these options out there and more of the options and it becoming... So that people actually know that this is a choice that they have, and that this exists, that there are doctors that operate this way and there are labs that will test and show these things. It's not just based upon feelings, even though that's usually our first indicator. So, yeah.

I did want to circle back around though, because I had a question on this with the supplements for supporting adrenal, not necessarily healing, but supporting the adrenal glands, and Ashwagandha is one of my favorites adaptogen herbs, actually, I use it quite a lot. And you also mentioned Rhodiola. Now, with adaptogen herbs though, would you take both of those at the same time or is it one or the other?

Dr. Shannyn: You could take them around the same time. I probably wouldn't take them together. Not that there's a harm, but I like to space mine out. So, I would do Ashwagandha, let's say, in the morning, Rhodiola in the mid afternoon and then you could take them on the same day. I wouldn't just take them all at the same time.

Melissa: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification, because honestly I've kind of wondered that, I'm like, "Hmm, [inaudible 00:38:17]."

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah. And they both have different benefits, because that's the beauty of an adaptogen is they're going to meet your immune system, your nervous system where they need to be and they'll have different functions.

Melissa: Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Adaptogen herbs. I remember when I first heard about... I'm like, "Are these things real? There's really an herb that could..." Like, I find it extremely fascinating, the geek in me, I was like, I was almost a 4.0 student. I really actually love, I love data. I love learning things. And the more I dive into herbs and holistic and every, it is amazing-

Dr. Shannyn: Fascinating.

Melissa: ... what some of these things can do.

Dr. Shannyn: I [inaudible 00:38:58] lab testing and herb research, I could do that every day for the rest of my life. Those are my favorite things. I'm such a nerd about them, but the more you really dive deep and you might be figuring this out for yourself, it makes perfect sense. When you start seeing how things have different impact in these pathways, in this physiology, you're like, "Oh my goodness, everything we need to heal really has been provided for us. We just have to know the right things to use." I really believe that. It's out there, God made it. It's somewhere. We just have to know the right agents to use at the right time. It's amazing how powerful these things are. Again, they just don't get enough credit. It's not talked about enough that they are very medicinal properties that these herbs and these homeopathics have, you just need somebody knowledgeable enough to put you in the right protocol.

Melissa: Yeah. One of the things... My experience with, a lot of my listeners know this, but I first, really, it clicked for me when none of the prescription medications, I was taking them up to six times a day, maximum dose of proton-pump inhibitors as well as sucralfate, which is a chemical bandaid basically that coats the stomach when you have stomach ulcers and it just coats it so that you can eat without being in excruciating pain. Yet, none of that was actually working, even though I was on the maximum doses for way too long. I still had to have my upper stomach and esophagus biopsy for cancer in my late 20s. Had the beginning of cellular change and erosion happening. Just by changing my diet at that time allowed me to heal and get off all of those medications. That was without any type of herbal supplement. I mean, that was literally just food. Really, that was for me a pivotal moment for so many things in my life. But I really realized that it... Yet, the body can and will heal itself in many cases if we just give it what it needs.

Dr. Shannyn: And get out of the way, stop giving it things it doesn't need. Remove the things that are barriers, which could sometimes include medications. I mean, same deal, don't just go stop all your stuff. But sometimes that is an inhibitor, it's a chemical, it's a toxin you're putting into your body daily. It's going to limit the healing ability. So, really figuring out what your body needs, removing the junk and then giving it back good support. For most people, that can fix a lot of things that are going on in your body.

Melissa: Yeah. I know inflammation is a big deal. I think a lot of times, even myself, you think of inflammation, you're like, "Oh, I twisted my ankle, it's swollen." Or maybe you pulled a muscle and it's sore and there's some swelling around there. Or maybe you have a joint where you had an injury when you were younger, arthritis is setting in, that's typically how I would think of inflammation and then you would automatically think anti-inflammatory, pharmacy days, taking ibuprofen or an NSAID or something like that. But inflammation, I think this was, when I did the lab testing, especially the food testing, because a lot of the foods that I was eating were actually things that were causing a huge inflammation response from my body.

But they were "healthy" foods. And they're not going to be bad foods for everybody, but I was having inflammation responses to them. I mean, things like organic oatmeal, I would've never thought... I was drinking oat milk because I thought that I was maybe having reaction to cow's milk. I knew that something was off, but I couldn't figure out what foods it was just on my own, even though I'd done elimination diets in the past, I'm very familiar with them.

So, where I'm going with this is because I think we typically think of inflammation as almost being an injury, an injured spot, but we can, like I said, if you twisted your ankle or you got hit or you pulled something or something like that, or repetitive movement-type issue of inflammation. But you can have inflammation within your system from foods. And I don't think we realize how damaging that is over time. So, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that and how that inflammation causes the issues within our body's pathways of the hormones. Because I think for a lot... That was where I was like, "Well, why would that affect those pathways? Why would that make my thyroid and adrenals be low?" Because I'm having inflammation issues from food.

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah. I mean, the body is completely interconnected. You can't have imbalance in one area and expect it not to affect other areas. So, I think that's lesson number one is everything really is connected, whether you can see it obviously or not. But there is an inflammatory component to just about every imbalance condition and disease known to man, because inflammation blocks your body's ability to heal. Now, inflammation can come from food. It can come from water. It can come from products you're putting on your body. It can come from medications you're taking. It can come from inside your body. Your body can make inflammation as a protective barrier, just like when you roll your ankle and it swells up.

Well, if you keep eating inflammatory foods, what do you think your gut's going to do? It's going to make inflammation and swell up to protect itself. That's what it's doing. But in that swelling, you end up with leaky gut. You end up creating an environment that allows overgrowth in bacteria. So, things like bacterial overgrowth in the gut, yeast and candida, chronic and viral issues like Epstein-Barr, those things thrive in a more inflammatory environment. So, when you have inflammation, you're actually suppressing immune function. You're allowing more of these overgrowth and illnesses to thrive in your body, which will ultimately put more stress on your adrenal glands, which will then imbalance your hormones, which will then imbalance the thyroid, which will then create the symptoms, which could all stem back to, for me, it was 29 foods and they were healthy foods like coconut and lemons and limes and ginger that I was eating almost daily, creating massive amounts of inflammation in my body, which manifested for me in migraine headaches and severe joint pain.

In somebody else, it might be bloating in reflux, or it might be skin issues like eczema and psoriasis, that was my husband's issue. And he didn't know he had an allergy to, for him it's corn and almonds. Those were things we were doing on a regular basis, creating massive skin eruptions in him. So, there is no way to separate one source of inflammation from the function of other systems in the body. Because eventually they're all going to talk to each other. If there's inflammation, all of the areas will be impeded, and that's what creates imbalance.

Melissa: So, I know that there really are no quick fixes, even though even with medication, I feel like medication is oftentimes what's kind of looked at as a quick fix, but as we've really talked about here, that's just a bandaid and it doesn't actually fix it. But even with working on lowering stress levels, using some of the adaptogen herbs and then figuring out where your inflammation is coming from based upon, for a lot of people, it is food. Even what is healthy foods for some people. Just depending on how damaged or how far down we are on the path. How long does it take, and I'm assuming it's going to have to do with part of the severity of each person's condition and where they're at, but how long does it take to start seeing improvement and then true healing? Or is there even a number that you can really put on that as far as a timeline?

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah, it definitely is person specific. A lot of times when I see someone's labs, I can give them a much more accurate assumption on how long things are going to take. But my kind of go-to statement is, the first 30 to 60 days, you might not feel a whole lot. We're putting out the fires, we're beginning to fix the root causes. We're taking away the imbalances. But nothing's really fixed yet. So, some people feel like they're putting in a lot of effort in that first month and maybe not seeing a ton of return yet, but then you also get the people who two weeks in are like, "This is the best I've ever felt. This is amazing. It happened so fast." But it's not always that way. Those first one to two months you're putting in the work, but the correction hasn't quite happened yet. So, it can go either way in that first little bit.

I always encourage people that usually about 90 days in, you're going to know things are moving in the right direction, likely will happen before that, but just at least give yourself that 90 days, because there's some really important cell turnover that happens, in the liver, in the gut, in these areas that do take about 90 days to complete. So, it's a good time to know that you've cycled through probably a good chunk of your inflammation by that point. The majority of people, it just continues to get better from there. The healing journey is never done. You continue to benefit from all of your effort. But I will absolutely say that first 90 days is always the most work, always the most effort, always the most changes you have to make. Then majority of your really big breakthroughs will just continue to happen after that.

I think that's just a good, realistic expectation for most people, if they're just getting started in their journey, that those first couple months can be a little bit up and down. There might be some flare-ups. There might be some plateaus that we hit. But that's why I love testing is there's always a tweak or a change or we need a new process or protocol or what new thing can we check to make sure we're continuing to get progress in the right direction. It just helps speed that process up.

Melissa: Okay. For those who are wanting to look into the testing, because like I said, for so long I was eating the foods that I thought were the good foods and then when we got the lab work back, I'm like, "Oh my gosh. So much of what I was consuming was actually attributing to the inflammation." But I didn't know, because it wasn't sugar. I mean, we all know there's certain... We know white flour and sugar are not good, they cause inflammation responses in insulin, all those different things, insulin responses in the body. But those weren't actually my trigger foods, it was chicken eggs. And we have pasture-raised, 100% organic, our own backyard chickens. But it was the chicken. So, we now have ducks. They've not started laying yet, but now I switched to duck eggs.

And it was things like that, that I would have never guessed. I don't even think I would've taken them out of an... When I was doing, in the past, where I've done the elimination diets, where you go to extremely, extremely basic and then add things back in. I wouldn't even have taken those out during an inflammation or during doing an elimination diet, because there are home growed eggs and I know the exact practice and everything like that. So, for me, the lab tests were great to actually see, yes, here's where you're having a cortisol spike, that's a real thing, it's not in your head. And those different hormone levels. But really it was that food testing. Because, like I said, some of those, I don't think I would ever found on my own and others would've taken me an extremely long time before I was able to identify each one of them.

Because I, okay, full confession here. I really like to get A pluses. I did say I was honorable student and that's just my personality. So, when I got back the food testing, because I feel like I have done so much work. I was shocked that there was 34 foods that my body reacted to. In fact I'll be honest, for any of you, if you listen to this episode and you decide to get some of the testing done, and this happens to you, this is why I'm sharing this. I was like in a... Depressed me for a couple of days. I was mad. I'm like, "How can I have put in all of these years of work, done so much and still be this broken? How dare my body?"

Dr. Shannyn: Right? Yes. "It's failing me."

Melissa: It did, I was like, "It's failing me." And I felt like I failed this test that I was expecting to get at least a B on. And I came in with a D minus or something. Yeah. It really affected my psyche in a way that I was not anticipating. Even as I was going through it, I'm like, "This is weird that this is my reaction." But it was still my reaction. Then I came to the point where I was like, "Well, if I hadn't have taken these measures, think how bad off I would be." If this is doing what I have been doing, which is a lot, and this is where I'm at, goodness, who knows what the case would've been if I hadn't.

So, anyways, I had 34 foods that I have to stay away from right now during this healing protocol time. I will say that I have cheated and had some of them, but I can immediately tell when I do, because I will start to immediately get those signs of the inflammation. For me, it's always heartburn. I know when I've eaten something I haven't, because I will almost immediately get heartburn. That tends to be just my body's signal, so that I recognize right away. So, anyways, sharing that with anybody, because I do recommend looking at the lab testing, because it was so eye-opening for me, but also prepare yourself, because you may be surprised at what comes back. At least I was.

Dr. Shannyn: And it goes both ways. So, I really believe that having validation that there's a reason why you feel the way you do is the first step in healing. Because so many of us go so long not knowing or not having an answer, being told we're fine. So, for some people, it's a relief when they finally see like, "Oh my goodness, I always hear from people. I was so scared. I was going to do all these tests and I was all going to come back normal, because then I was going to be stuck in the same place I was." So, it's almost a relief to see like, "No, there really are imbalances, things that are creating the way that I feel. Now, at least I have something to work on." There's that side.

But then I do definitely get people and I typically start my tests, free consults with people by saying, "I fully accept that you are going to be very overwhelmed by the end of this conversation. I just want you to know that's normal. I'm going to hold your hand. We're going to walk through it from this point forward. But you are going to feel quite bombarded by the end of this. We'll go back through it all together." Because it is a lot and it can almost start feeling, like you said, like, "Oh my goodness, why is there so many things off?" Or, "What do I do about this?" Or, "Can I heal with this many things going on in my body?" So, there's that side of it too.

Either response is perfectly normal. I think that's the value of just having somebody to help walk you through it. Because I tried to do it alone myself for many years, and it's frustrating and it's lonely and it can be scary when you don't understand why your body's doing certain things. So, just being open about your emotions one way or another, when you go through your results is huge too. Because if we know how you're feeling, we'll be better able to support you through that journey, because everyone's going to have a different response. But finding the answers and seeing the reason really is the first step to true healing, is that validation that like, "Nope, it's not all in my head. It's not just me. There's the reason, now let's get to work on it."

Melissa: Yeah. So, for those who would like to look into the testing that you guys have offered and some of the other things like that, where is the best place for people to contact you and to take a peek at that?

Dr. Shannyn: Yeah. I have several different ones. If you're open to it, I have a document that I usually send out that's The Three Tests That Your Doctor's Not Running That's Keeping You Sick. And that goes through the explanation of each of those. If you wanted to put that in the show notes, you can do that. It has a link to schedule a free consultation. So, because a lot of the testing is individualized based on what you have going on, we always offer a free intro call, it's called The Journey to Wellness Call, where we can suggest the best test for you to get started with, because there are several that we can run. So, I always suggest doing that first.

I do have links in my bios where you can jump on and order your own tests if you want, if you know which ones you want, like you know for sure you want a food allergy test, the links to my Instagram bio, the links to my TikTok bio, they're all in there, but I always feel better about somebody getting on an intro call, getting individualized suggestions, and then we can get the right test in your hands. So, scheduling that Journey to Wellness Call is always the best place to start.

Melissa: Yeah, we will definitely put links to those documents and everything in the show notes and the blog post that accompanies this episode, so that people who want to go further and look into that, can, that is great. Well, Dr. Shannyn, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a pleasure talking with you and I know that there's going to be a lot of people who are listening, who definitely have some a-ha moments or are resonating like, "Oh my gosh, that is me." And will be able to seek out ways for them to heal. So, thank you.

Dr. Shannyn: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. I think it's amazing that you're bringing this awareness to more people, because it's definitely needed.

Melissa: Yes. Amen. I hope that you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. For some of you that it will put you on the path that you need to be able to heal and function. Again, you can access the different links that we mentioned and those assessment tools at melissaknorris.com/348. And I will be back here with you next week with another brand new episode. Blessings and Mason jars for now, my friends.